@Emile dug I don't like email either. I use it to send emails to less than five people in #stuckinyourcraw
@Puzz subscribed to channel #stuckinyourcraw
@jettm subscribed to channel #stuckinyourcraw
@tha_flowmaster in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %/XjcoF7i4

@ev the technical issues might have been resolved, but have the interpersonal issues been resolved? Those are often more important.

@ev in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %/XjcoF7i4

@piet In response to my 'talking too much' on the call: the only issue we talked about on the call was the mcss/css issue -- an issue that I filed on %mixbay.

I think you did an excellent job as the facilitator making sure other voices were heard, and I respected your requests when you wanted to hear different perspectives. I also respect your decision to unfollow my feed id.

The reason I'm interested in ssb is because it is a distributed technology that allows communication without a central authority being able to ban users for their opinions or 'behaviors'.

@bobhaugen As far as I'm concerned this issue is resolved. Thanks for continuing to follow me. If you're ever interested in dropping in on the call, please feel free to do so. As far as I understand it, they are open to anyone who wants to attend. The next call is Wednesday at 4pm CST.

@tha_flowmaster in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %/XjcoF7i4

I'm not unfollowing @ev - haven't been personally affected much, because I'm not coding on SSB or participating in the calls, just a bystander. And I liked a lot of the stuff that Ev was working on. Hope you all can harmonize. Might take some flex from Ev...and probably others.

What's a good human protocol for coming out of emotional disagreements and back to harmonious collaboration?

@pie pete in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %/XjcoF7i4

Yep, I'm gonna unfollow you @ev, for now anyway.

Here's why: People are spending an enormous amount of time on you. I'm spending a lot of time being pissed off at you because you're not listening to me or people I care about. (Being pissed at you is my problem but this will make it easier for me to work on things I care about rather than getting sucked into this stuff).

"obscure communication" - Not having heard of something doesn't make it obscure.

"when I refused" - actually you didn't. Mix suggested it, I explained how it worked and asked if my explanation was ok. You started talking about mcss. I asked directly "this technique was suggested, would you be up for trying it?" you didn't answer but talked about something else.

Why do you need to be "let in on [an idea] prior to the call?" Can people not bring new ideas in a call?

Interesting you want to communicate without being "squashed." My experience of that call was that you were the one doing the squashing. How much time did you spend talking? I'm guessing 70 - 80% of the time? Near the end of the call I was very aware of it as the facilitator and that's why I called you out for talking over someone.

I acknowledge that being asked to try out a new communication technique when other people seem to know it was probably daunting. That's totally fair. I think I failed as the facilitator to make you comfortable with it.

Also interesting to see how much this enspiral label is triggering. I guess it's easy to imagine that it's a big part of our lives. It isn't really for me. I've been to one retreat. It was great. I've met a bunch of great people who are loosely associated with enspiral. But it's not some super secret club. Join it if you want.

I am grateful that your behaviour is triggering discussion and thought about communication process. @dominic 's post about human protocols is fucking rad.

I guess I'm running an experiment around boundary setting. I'm saying no to your behaviour. I think it's unskillful. It does not lead to people enjoying the network or enjoying working on developing the network.

I hold no lingering ill will and maybe we can collaborate in the future.

@ev in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %/XjcoF7i4

@dominic See, I remember being asked to converse using an obscure communication 'tool' during the call, and when I refused being 'Enspiraled' for not wanting to cooperate with a rule book that I had not been let in on prior to the call.

No one has ever accused me of being passive about the projects that I care about, and I care about ssb because it enables people to communicate across the Internet without being squashed. If y'all don't want see my 'behavior' anymore, by all means unfollow me.

@dominic in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %/XjcoF7i4

@ev you said

@mikey I do not agree that people should be banned from networks because other people disagree with their opinions.

No one is upset because of your opinions, you are totally welcome to not like mcss, or hate it even. The problem is your behavior. opinions != behavior.

@ev in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %/XjcoF7i4

I said I was going to respond last night, but it got too late and the burgers were too good, so I decided to call it and go to sleep.

I'm happy to see this conversation is winding down.

History For those just tuning in, this conversation began with the css/mcss issue, leading to %mixbay and %minbay. We're working towards a common set of basic modules that can be used in both clients.

The conversation was restarted by @dominic on github, and was the topic for an hour ssbc call last Wednesday.

Current I'm happy to continue maintaining %minbay myself, which does not have embedded styles.

Responses

@mikey I do not agree that people should be banned from networks because other people disagree with their opinions.

@mixmix It's interesting that you bring up traumatic experiences. The only two I've ever had involved the use of NVC and other unvetted communication tools.

@dominic I am up for discussing clear rules for contributing to ssbc repos and call conduct. These will be useful as the network and org grows.

@dominic in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %/XjcoF7i4

The problem with "don't be a dick" is that it's pretty easy for one person's interpretation to differ from another. I think @gb's suggestion for a set of "rules" is a reasonable one. We didn't have a set of rules, but there are certainly patterns that we are using informally. We can describe those and call them "rules". It's worth a try.

(I don't have time to write a longer post just now, will be back)

@cellular in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %/XjcoF7i4

don't be a dick

cf. Be decent

@Mikey in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %/XjcoF7i4

hey, thanks for opening this conversation @gb, it's nice to be reminded of what brings us together. :heart:

Where it's breaking down is in the suggestion on the call and I see it in the writing style, too, that a set of communication rules (that I see as orthogonal to NVC) must be both observed and adhered to for 'best results' -- so, one ought to self-reflect, self-edit and consider before publishing to this network lest one break one in an unspoken set of expanding and contracting rules of communication.

i guess i'm not seeing the same suggestion about "communication rules". is there a specific suggestion you have in mind that we can reference? i'm wary of this being a strawman to argue about, when really we all agree.

rather than communication rules, i'm seeing a simple (but also implicit) code of conduct, popular in many communities:

don't be a dick

that is to say, i don't care what protocols people use to communicate, but that doesn't mean i have to continue to be friends with you if i feel you're being a dick.

i'm reminded of this xkcd:

xkcd #1357

@mixxx in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %/XjcoF7i4

TL;DR communities have fluid rules / protocols - they are living breathing evolving things (if you let them). The 'rules' are often peoples boundaries. If you hear people saying "hey this is annoying me", you could be stepping over a personal boundary. What you decide to do with that defines how individuals, and in aggregate a community will respond.

@mixxx in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %/XjcoF7i4

I definitely know that when there is uncertainty, my preference is to clarify, stabilise, and tighten protocols. That is definitely not what some people appreciate.

I really value community - spaces where people can be themselves and be respected and supported.
For me, one of the cornerstones of a community are it's boundaries, because these help exclude certain patterns and behaviours that can make it hard for respect, open-ness, and support to flourish. An easy example would be that I don't want physical abuse in my community space.

What does it mean when you propose to exclude certain behaviours? This can run up against some peoples conceptins of radical inclusiveness.

Reflecting on this current battle of wills, I see boundaries being asserted in competition to one another. For myself, I am asserting a personal boundary, whereby if I'm going to build futures with a person, I expect to be able to have discourse, feedback, and adjustment (for all parties).
I believe this expectation is good baseline for setting up positive iteration + growth. I'm open to this being challenged and trying other baselines which support my values.

In terms of tools, I don't really care what they are, so long as they're serving the people. NVC is obsviously a tool that's not suitable here (not to say the whole thing is crap).
By orthogonal do you mean "on a uniquely different axis" or do you mean similar?

I feel like there's a pattern of communication from both ev + gb which from my perspective takes communication vectors and maps them into one axis in a way which collapses nuance and skews interpretation.

e.g. I don't think anyone ever talked about rules, or a rulebook. What I heard was a question like "hey this communication style isn't working for me, can we try another thing, I'd like to propose this thing if you're open to it?".
I think what was heard was "you must do this, these are the rules, you will be punished if you do not abide".

I think everyone does this, we have axes by which we make meaning. I've guessed that some of your axes (ev + egb) are traumatic experiences with people/ places/ patterns and these sound really strong. For myself, some of my core axes are beliefs that I'm kind and compassinate, and that I'm an outsider. These are definitly sources of blind spots, misreading and conflict for me.

I think the core belief for me here is that collapsing nuance into perceived black and white is an anti-pattern which leads to division and conflict, whereas hanging out in the grey is harder, but is the space of creation and learning.

@ev in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %/XjcoF7i4

@mixmix I'm trying to grok this. I'll weigh in with a longer response after a shopping trip.

@cellular in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %/XjcoF7i4

Nice clarity.

Where it's breaking down is in the suggestion on the call and I see it in the writing style, too, that a set of communication rules (that I see as orthogonal to NVC) must be both observed and adhered to for 'best results'

I wonder if this is the case. Do we need rules to communicate? Or can we just "say what we want"? What is the purpose, the desired best results, of the communication? What does it mean for a rule to be broken or for communication to fail?

At the software level we communicate with different protocols for different purposes. With SSB we use secret-handshake, message schemas, and the rest of the stack. These are usually effectively agreed-to before we connect. At the human level, we have language and cultural communication protocols, which are often assumed. This can be problematic when it feels like one doesn't know the rules, or isn't being listened to. Is this what our sbots are complaining about too? hello not accepted, challenge not accepted?

Is human communication like the computer protocols where rules must be agreed on before communication begins or else we get errors? How are the rules agreed on, except by more communication? Is our communication a universal protocol where we re-negotiate the rules in an ongoing manner? Do we need consensus to do this? What kind of consensus, and how do we know if it is good enough? Are different consensus mechanisms / communication protocols / sets of rules useful for different social communities? Is this related to the values, goals, trust relationships, and modes of production of the people in the communities? When is it useful to make slight changes in the protocol to make implementations incompatible?

@gb in #stuckinyourcraw

Communication Modifications & Ramifications

Let's start with what it appears to me that those of us participating in this conversation have in common:

  1. Everyone using this technology we're using today cares in some way (many of us in deep ways) about the future of tech and sees the importance of building and using technologies that are resilient.
  2. Many of us using this technology are well-educated, most of us to date are from middle-class backgrounds and have had to work hard to get to wherever we are, even if where we are isn't a whole lot of anything to look at to an 'outsider' (and by outsider I mean someone who doesn't care about technology the way that those of us here care about it -- see my first point).
  3. Many of us have little money, despite the fact that we work our asses off on anything that presents itself.

Now, that's where I'm coming at this from -- acknowledgment of what it seems those of us participating in this technology have in common. Feel free to disagree, obv.

Where it's breaking down is in the suggestion on the call and I see it in the writing style, too, that a set of communication rules (that I see as orthogonal to NVC) must be both observed and adhered to for 'best results' -- so, one ought to self-reflect, self-edit and consider before publishing to this network lest one break one in an unspoken set of expanding and contracting rules of communication.

Everett brought up a few failures I've had communicating in strict NVC. I'm up for discussing my failures here if that helps move the current logjam forward.

@robin in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %yIhxy5FvF

I used to phone anyone I wanted to talk to; we're talking mid-1990s here. Other than my parents on the other side of the world via Skype/Firefox Hello/Jitsi, I've barely made a social (i.e. excluding calling a business/the library about opening hours/some product or other) phone call for years and certainly not landline to landline. First I moved to email, then SMS, then IM (well, google chat...), now scuttlething. I'm sure most boomers/Xers have a similar experience, maybe offset by a year or two from me. Does that fit into your question gb?

@gb in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %lagp0zQR3

:tada: will do, @nilon

@nilon in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %lagp0zQR3

:cool: !! I hadn't noticed you could use emojis here.
keep update on what you're doing/heading, all best

@gb in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %lagp0zQR3

Buena suerte with your juice endeavor, @nilon! Will holler if I'm in your neck of the woods someday. :tropical_drink:

@nilon in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %lagp0zQR3

Hey @ev & @gb . First of all full empathy, I totally get what you're going through and it's quite a hard deal to have place and job, so all best. Then I'd like to also pitch some ideas.

  • Maybe @gb can teach yoga?
  • Maybe both can teach English, just conversations with a native, this is quite worthy, maybe you have to get out of the pc and show your face in language institutions. It's a good starter. I had a friend who did this in Chec Republic with Spanish ten years ago and now owns an institute.
  • I got a little shocked with the quote:

    I'm 100% up for being a wage slave.

    Maybe you can make a small investment in the real world and be your own boss in any field. I finished a masters degree with research in social science field and have to always go on the side for parallel work. I just put U$S 3000 together and two other partners with the same amount and we're launching together a juice bar.

  • If you already know Spanish, then Portuguese and going to Brazil is not far away, it's just a half step more. Also when you've already learned a language the next comes easier, plus you already are fluent in some cultural adaptation.

And again, all best, hope you can move forward. You guys are looking around with attention, I believe that the best will come out of it. Hope I can see you in Argentina or around sometime. Cheers.

@johnny in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %lagp0zQR3

Addendumlog: a van is fun if you want to move around a lot, and have money to blow on conveniences, town to town, cafe to cafe... I almost joined a regional 24 hr. fitness franchise, for their showers and such, the most economical solution to ablutions I could find (this was because the spacelab was inadequate at the time, not because I was stationed in my van).

@johnny in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %lagp0zQR3

There are no streets in space, and the neighbors are pretty far out!

I really don't live in a van, except when touring earth, and then I prefer to have friendly places to rest. If I did live in my van for reals, I would probably live off highway 1 with the other RVers, between Ventura and LA, close enough to bike some place for supplies. That's probably the best you could hope for, unless you want to spend $10-30 to camp or day use some County, State or Federal Park.

A van is inadequate for more than a couple nights. You can't store enough to be far from water sources, and you need to be close to a restroom (or nature, which tends to put you far away from other needs/wants). Although I did meet a dude who had water and gas tanks, stove and a toilet in his van, I was not envious. I'd get a bigger vehicle if you want to actually live out of it... then you can park up on the coast for weeks, or the forest, or desert...

@ansuz in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %lagp0zQR3

I shared my 14 square meter apartment with my girlfriend over the summer. It was pretty cramped, but it motivated us to spend more time out in the city.

I'd want a bigger space in a cold country like Canada, where you might expect some gnarly cabin fever to kick in, but in a warm climate I don't think about it too much.

@ev in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %lagp0zQR3

@johnny One of my concerns about living in a van is I'd begin referring to it as a 'satellite in a space lab', meanwhile the guy in the house across the street would say 'that dude lives in a van!' But it's California, everything is weird in California.

@johnny in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %lagp0zQR3

I do not live in a van; I live on a satellite in a space lab.

@susanne in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %lagp0zQR3

Would be interesting to explore some sort of app-token that rewards pub holders.

@Apostolis in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %lagp0zQR3

@ev

Note that my job offers had to do with mathematical skills or with analyzing the private data of their users.

So I can understand why you would take that job, people need to make a living , but we need to be aware of the things we lose.

@noffle in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %lagp0zQR3

I know @johnny and @cel are doing this right now, maybe they can weigh in on their experience?

Yes, I'd also like to hear more about your experiences with this.

@johnny in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %lagp0zQR3

stackoverflow has many remote listings

@ev in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %lagp0zQR3

@dominic_temp I know @johnny and @cel are doing this right now, maybe they can weigh in on their experience? Don't forget about the downsides guys!

I know that California has a long history of people living in vehicles, but I've never been brave enough to do it myself.

@marina in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %lagp0zQR3

@xstt your home is beautiful!

@ev in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %lagp0zQR3

Oh man, this is a very generous offer. I can't log into FB because I don't have one, but I'm happy to hear you got yours back!

I'm hesitant to say yes, because I know from my experience traveling in 2012 (couldn't pay rent in Japan, so bounced to Berlin -- had to sell Macbook Air to get back to US) that getting on a plane when you're broke is not always the best idea.

I've always wanted to backpack around S. America, but I also want to have the financial padding to do so.

Right now we're < $90 USD from my dad's house in Laredo, so worst case we're just a bus ride from the border.

The other thing I'm considering is work. I can't really work on the ground in Mexico, and I can't really work in Rio. The reasoning to stay in Mexico over Rio is I know the language a little bit, so I have better chance of negotiating the whole broke thing. Also I'd have to find the money to get there. S. America is a surprisingly long distance from Mexico.

But ultimately I know that I have the best opportunities back home in America, even if that means running food to tables -- or ideally scrubbing dishes in the back of a brewpub somewhere in the USA.

@Dominic_temp in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %lagp0zQR3

My big concern about the US is that it's expensive to live in any of the cities with public transport, and if you want less expensive then you gotta live somewhere where you need a car.

All while living in a space as inexpensive and small as a chicken coop.

Sounds like you are talking about a van.
A chicken coup on wheels.

When I was last in the bay area I attended a "vechile dwellers meetup" which included various people living in vans, RVs, shipping containers (we visited a collective space for converting a shipping container into a home), including one person who lived in a Toyota Prius (!)

I met someone that worked for GOOG and slept in a box truck in their parking lot. https://frominsidethebox.com/

The difficulty with this suggestion, however is it does require the capital expendature of purchasing the van.

@susanne in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %lagp0zQR3

My house: https://www.facebook.com/susanne.tarkowski.tempelhof/media_set?set=a.10151199634806417.433789.722051416&type=3

395486_10151199637941417_924513033_n.jpg

@susanne in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %lagp0zQR3

I have a house outside Rio de Janeiro, if you guys need somewhere to live for free. Internet and electricity is shit, but otherwise it's a rather nice pad...

@ev in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %lagp0zQR3

@apostolis I'm 100% up for being a wage slave. There was a time when I railed about that kind of thing, but after years of being independent with various levels of success, I wouldn't mind checking into an office every day.

@Apostolis in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %lagp0zQR3

@ev

I got about 4 interview offers from Companies, mostly because of my activity at mailing lists.

I got one from Google when I was creating a decentralized graph processing system and was using apache zookeeper.

I got one from a London company when I switched to possibly using apache storm.

I then got two offers when I started using the Idris programming language. Their mailing list is full of google and facebook employees that search for talent. One offer was from Google. The other was from a San Fransisco company.

As you might know, the SF programmers get in average 120k+.

I didn't even reply them. I prefer 500 per month that 10k per month because I am a free person now.

In Greek, the word for "work" is "δουλειά" and the word for "slave" is "δούλος" most probably because as you might know ancient greece used slaves to do the work.

Modern Greeks do not really look into the etymology of the word , most of them do not question why someone gives them orders.

@ev in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %lagp0zQR3

@kemitchell thanks for weighing in. I agree with you on not being picky -- I ran food to tables for 6 months! I'd definitely trade up from that experience to coding in any language, on any legacy system. I'll even design your website for you. But I also have to agree with you about low-bid foreign contractors, it's impossible to compete with India or SE asia on freelance platforms. It's hard to argue with the economics of having someone design a website for you for $5 -- I think this pretty much eliminates any American's ability to compete in the low-end market.

@gandalf in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %lagp0zQR3

I've definitely seen folks with good consulting practices move away from big cities and keep things rolling. Those folks tend to make regular trips into the big market cities, to face-to-face with their clients, keeping the human connection alive. They also tend to do lots of VOIP and video conferencing, for the same reason. The personal element is really important.

I get the sense that it's much harder to establish a consulting practice selling your services into the cities from Far Away. You become fungible. In my own time, I found myself falling into the "outsourcing" bucket with prospects outside my metro area, a bucket that felt ever more crowded with very low-rate foreign contractors. I can only imagine that's more true now, especially on the big oWork/eLance/Upwork-scale platforms. Even with an $800 per month target take, you may find yourself outbid by folks with even lower costs. There's still a premium for native English, but good working proficiency is a lot more common abroad than it used to be.

Slotting yourself in as an overflow or supplementary hand to an established consultancy might bridge the gap. If your costs are really that predictable, you might even work a deal where they put you on a monthly retainer that looks a lot like your minimum take for the month. That kind of gig still isn't easy to come by, but you may have more luck establishing a good personal and professional rapport with one busy consultant or consultancy, as opposed to a steady stream of new clients, all of whom are remote.

No matter what way you go, expect a slow initial startup period. Eventually, almost all good contract coders survive and thrive by referral and repeat business, which takes time to build up on itself to a self-sustaining level.

The one piece of advice I think I've earned the hard way about that period is to purge yourself of all pickiness about the work you're willing to take. If you go out looking for just distributed systems work, or just JavaScript work, it's going to be much, much harder. Most folks I know who specialize---in any line of skilled work---do so by taking everything they can get to start, building up more of that kind of work than they can handle, then picking and choosing the kind of work they want when it's Feast, falling back on whatever-comes-in-the-door when it's Famine. A few years of that, and you end up with a reputation that draws clients who need what you want to do.

As for surviving in America, people are all over the board. I'm a latecomer to Oakland, where I pay pretty serious rent, with baseline monthly costs over $2k. I can overcome that only because higher billing rates are the norm here. Two unfortunate effects:

  1. In the Bay Area, I'm cheap as lawyers of my ilk go. To clients in Oklahoma and Virginia and Texas, I'm a pricey specialist at the same rate.

  2. The relatively high billing rates don't help when you're just getting started, trying to build up book. I only survived because I had savings from previous employment to hold me down until my solo practice gained steam.

I think you're right to associate cheaper stateside living with cars. The same dynamic hits consultants who leave California for affordable "fly-over:" country. Even if they stay freelance, they tend to ride airplanes a lot. Longer distances, longer time frames, but it's still a kind of commute.

Then there's the whole category of folks who set up on the fringes of a metro area, just inside reasonable commute or transit range. The last BART stops in the Bay Area. Burbs of LA. I meet lots of folks on motorcycles who ride just because they can split lanes and take the HOV lanes. That gives them a much wider viable commute range during rush hours.

Good luck, y'all.

@ev in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %lagp0zQR3

@apostolis A farm is one idea, but as you mentioned, it would require access to a farm. We have considered that. I'm also concerned about the expense of a car.

While I do hate cars --I think they're dangerous killing machines that own you, not the other way around--, I don't consider myself to be in the 'people who detest capitalism' group. I'm fine with using money to buy and sell things, in a working economy. I do believe that the economies of much of the world are a bit skewed right now. I'm not sure how to fix that myself.

I had many discussions with people last year who would say 'well, why are you working in a restaurant? why don't you get a real job?' and I've always said 'if you'd be willing to refer me to a job alternative to the one I have right now then I'd be happy to take it.' And no one ever seemed to have any suggestions other than the vague 'there are jobs out there.... somewhere!'

@Apostolis in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %lagp0zQR3

If you had a house somewhere and a farm, you could reduce your expenses to a minimum. At least that's what I am doing for now.

People that detest Capitalism will be affected by the stress that all people feel but they will also have to deal with a reality they dislike.

I was lucky to have a place to stay and a very small income to live by, otherwise I would probably be in the same position as you.

@ev in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %lagp0zQR3

@noffle Yah, I'd love live in Oakland or even San Francisco in my ideal world. After our trip to Oakland in 2013 (where we met @james @marina @johnny @maxogden and Luk.xxx RIP and saw @dominic when he stopped by, we came to the conclusion that it's really not possible to live in the Bay right now without employment. For us anyway.

$1,100 for us right now is more than we spend in a month on rent and food and anything else. It'd actually be kind of hard to spend that much money here in Mexico City.

But I used to have a loft in Oakland in 2010 that was $1,300 or $1,350, all to myself. And that felt weirdly cheap back then. But Jingletown was driving me loco, so I moved to San Francisco and got a room for only $800 in the Mission. Can you imagine? You'd never be able to get that now.

If I had a job anywhere in Bay, I'd jump on a one-way ticket there tomorrow.

@noffle in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %lagp0zQR3

Aw, I'm sorry to hear about the hard times @ev @gb. I wish you both success in these endeavours.

I'd love to see y'all up here in the bay area, though it's hardly the pinnacle of affordability. My partner and I are in the process of finding a place in Oakland to get out of San Jose, which has been getting unbearable re: rent. In fact, we saw a really unique place yesterday in Oakland (1bd 1 bath) for $1100. It's a couple of cool folks who bought out the whole building and are finishing up / renting out most of the bottom floor to some cool folks. If this interests you, let me know and I can get you in touch with them.

Bonne chance, mes amis!

@gb in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %lagp0zQR3

Thanks, @cryptix -- found your response touching.

@ev in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %lagp0zQR3

@cryptix It's funny you say that, because I told @gb last night that we might be getting skin cancer and lung cancer in Mexico City from the smog, but if we move to the states we'll end up with kidney, stomach or pancreatic cancer from the stress. Hah.

@mixxx in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %lagp0zQR3

Also, I really appreciate you both sharing and opening your thinking on this very real challenge.

I'm also currently trying to figure out how to pursue my passions and potentially support a partner who isn't working (e.g. having children etc).

@mixxx in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %lagp0zQR3

I'd be interested to hear from @ahdinosaur about his experience as an immigrant and bit of a wanderer.

New Zealand is a long way, but there are some lovely people here and having a community of lovely people to back me has enabled me to go so much further, so I would recommend places that have the right people.

@Toady in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %lagp0zQR3

I have no idea how to help here but this is very sad.

I hope you both find a place to stay that doesn't kill you one way or the other....

@ev in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %lagp0zQR3

Let's open this thread up to anyone who wants to weigh in. If you're in The States, how do you survive in America?

@ev in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %lagp0zQR3

@gb I'd love to find a tiny space somewhere, but the question I often come back to is where?

I guess if we narrow it down to places where I know people, we get this list:

New York, Brooklyn
SF Bay, (Oakland, SF)
Portland, Or
North Carolina (Fayetteville/Asheville/?)
Chicago
Kansas City
Texas (Laredo)

Then there's places I've thought about living, but don't know anyone -- Pittsburgh or any other random city I've never been to.

I'd always prefer living in NYC or the Bay, but I also think it's best to live in those places when you have a job. Otherwise you're just economically fucked.

But North Carolina, you need a car. And I hate cars.

@gb in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %lagp0zQR3

I'm up for living in something about the size of a chicken coop. I'm also willing to do the bartender thing again.

The big thing last year was you, @ev, were all, 'we can prepare to roll when we have distributed social,' and then it happened. And we're here. The profile photo thing is stuck in my craw, but that's a few hours of work to fix.

I don't know, man. Setting an intention is super yogic and I guess if I were to set my intention it would be to give notice, roll back to a city in the States where we can both find tech jobs and teach people about sbot at conferences in the 50 States.

All while living in a space as inexpensive and small as a chicken coop.

@ev in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %lagp0zQR3

@gb The biggest benefit to being down here is the inexpensive cost of living. Our rent is 6,000 pesos -- which is now less than $300 USD, and it includes everything from wifi/gas/garbage. All-in-all I think we're living for under $800 a month here. We can walk or take the Metro anywhere we want, so there's no need for a car either.

My big concern about the US is that it's expensive to live in any of the cities with public transport, and if you want less expensive then you gotta live somewhere where you need a car. We couldn't have got anything done in Fayetteville without the Oldsmobile on loan to us. But some of the preferred places I've lived in the US are so expensive that I'd need a full time job to be able to pay rent and eat.

I'd move anywhere in the US for a job. As you mentioned, the one-backpack thing. But finding one these days isn't as easy as I sometimes see people claim.

I end up thinking the only way to make a living right now is to get a restaurant job. Those are everywhere, and turnover is always high at restaurants. It's cut and dry work, and I always had time to code or write in my spare time.

Anyway, I'm torn about the whole thing. yah, and the smog has been horrible. That was one of the reasons we left in 2015. That and running out of money, which is the same issue we have now.

@gb in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %lagp0zQR3

@xstt
your response arrived while I was responding to Everett and I'll say this. First, thanks for weighing in. I check the listings for paid gigs. So far, I haven't taken any paid gigs to do dev work, and I will if they appear.

As for your questions, @ev, yeah, it's on my mind, too. Right now you're over there cooking some pulled pork and it smells so good that all I can think of is many afternoons eating bbq pork in the ville. I'm not nostalgic for it the way I am Haskell, but I do think Carolina gets the bbq right.

I love living in Mexico City but the last month of pollution has been really bad. I mean, non-stop bad. You already know this, but for the record, I'm now doing the neti thing twice daily to make it possible to breathe. Everyone was all, 'it will improve post-holiday season,' but it hasn't. I'm not sure it will. Wishing it would don't make it so.

I love the Carolinas and would live there again with a quickness. I have family there, and some of them want me back in the Carolinas, so it's a possibility I'm open to. Really, I want the quiet to be able to do the programming work, hardwood floors to do the daily hour of yoga and four walls. I require very little. You require very little. Both of us pack down to one bag each. I used to be a bag on my back and one sidebag, but now I'm down to one bag on my back.

Funny to think I used to travel with two full-sized rollie suitcases and a bag on my back!

Hmm, where was I? Just past 6. Dinner soon.

@ev in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %lagp0zQR3

@xstt This is a good suggestion. I've been pursuing this as one avenue. The biggest issue is I don't have any leads. I've talked with a few people about setting up various things -- specifically I've pitched a few people on sbot pubs and/or personalized sbot clients for their people -- but I've had limited luck turning any of these leads into actual gigs.

@susanne in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %lagp0zQR3

Why don't you work online as freelance developers?

@ev in #stuckinyourcraw

Do we have to move back to America to make it?

@gb and I have been talking about this all day, so I figured it might be good to air it here on the append-only log.

We made it past the dismal election cycle, and in a few days the no-doubt-amusing inauguration, on money we earned working at a restaurant in Fayettenam for six months at the end of 2015/beginning of 2016. Also, we both have a trickle of book sales, mostly in BTC (which is awesome, but we can't buy food with it here).

However, with all of the anti-Mexico sentiment up there, we can't help but consider that Americans may be hesitating before paying for things from people who are below border. I hate that this appears to be true, but we can't work down here, and it's expensive to get set up and difficult to find a job up there.

What do we do? queue @gb .

@gb in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %yIhxy5FvF

:clap: :clap: :clap:

@ev in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %yIhxy5FvF

@gb Don't forget

“When your army has crossed the border, you should burn your boats and bridges, in order to make it clear to everybody that you have no hankering after home.” - Sun Tzu

Perhaps Cortés was a fan?

But we're not commanding armies, so it's not as if I can do anything besides leave behind the walled prisons for our digital selves. As far as I can tell, we're free to go now.

@gb in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %yIhxy5FvF

I know you know what you mean when you say 'scuttle your boats', but does everyone else?

History lesson! Artist's rendition of a fleet scuttle 'In order to eliminate any ideas of retreat, Cortés scuttled his ships.' Source

What more can I say? I scuttled the fb account in 2010, too. Then I re-opened it for 48 hours in 2012. I went into the maw because I was sharing space in Kyoto, Japan with someone who was about to go work at the offices of fb.

He tried to convince me it was really great. He wanted me to think I was missing something. Something with a capital 'S'. I tried to do a 168 hour experiment -- I went back in -- and ...that lasted 48 hours. I deleted the account for a second time in 2012, never went back, never missed it.

That is what I'd call an actual scuttling of a social ship. Scuttled with a capital 'S' the second time.

@ev in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %yIhxy5FvF

Everett: have you ever regretted anything you've scuttled?

Ok, what didn't I say in the kitchen? Oh! No. I don't regret scuttling a centralized application. I actually have to work very hard to kind of semi-participate in that society these days. I've gone for years at a time not using anything centralized at all, and that always ends up with people accusing me of not seeing their perspective or being some sort of distributed technology extremist.

I remember the original Internet before centralization fucked it all up, and I want to figure out how to get back there. I'm also a big fan of the Gandhi method of 'live the change you want to see in the world'.

So for my part I haven't had a Fecesbook account since 2010. This allows me to watch Fecesbook addicts giggle at their phones without also having a Pavlovian response to whatever intense social psychology manipulation algorithm is being leveled at their brains.

However, I'm having a hard time answering you question of why people don't just get off these things.

For example, I recently jumped back on Twitter to kind of see wtf was going on in there. And as far as I can tell it's just Trumpnet at this point. Trump says something, and it reverberates across the network. Everyone reads his latest tweet and then kicks a puppy/

But let's backtrack a little. I know you know what you mean when you say 'scuttle your boats', but does everyone else?

@gb in #stuckinyourcraw

Scuttling Social Ships

In the kitchen this (m)afternoon Everett and I were talking about scuttling (social) ships and why people don't. Don't scuttle them that is. I was all: maybe it's similar to when a little kid has a bear with its eyeballs falling off and his mom sews them back on but eventually says to the dad, 'ok, it's time for this kid to have a new bear.' The bear is gotten. The new bear is presented to the child. The child could play with the new bear but instead puts it on a shelf and continues to carry around the bear with the falling out eyeballs.

But we're grownups now, so we don't need the bear with the falling out eyeballs. Once we find out about a new technology, use it and discover why we might use it instead of the old technologies, we can scuttle said old technologies. Right? Wron...

Then I said to Everett: have you ever regretted anything you've scuttled? And he said, wouldn't this make a great #stuckinyourcraw -- and here we are. He didn't answer my question in the kitchen, instead he flipped the fried eggs onto the French bread he'd pre-grilled and I put one in my mouth and it was tasty and then I drank some espresso out of a tiny cup and while he washed the other half of the dishes I found the sunniest place in the apartment to sit down and write. Why don't people scuttle their (social) ships? Bigger question: at what point does someone say, 'ok, I'm outta here,' and sticks with it. I'm thinking even of the decision to only check email once a week. I'm on day 5. It's not easy, and I haven't scuttled the email ship for the reasons put forth in the thread on the topic -- though I'm striding in the email scuttle direction.

Scuttling social ships is today's #stuckinyourcraw. Curious where this'll go. @ev, you're up.

@gb in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %+Gmu00ISD

Decided to scale down email checks to once a week. I'll go in and delete the hundreds or thousands of spam messages that have accumulated in that time, add the terms to .procmailrc that I need to add, then respond to legit messages. It's not a perfect solution, but we don't live in a perfect world. This way I stay out of my inbox for six days out of seven and there are only 52 weeks in a year, so I only have to deal with email 57 times in 365 days. Besides, if it's urgent people can ping @ev or hop on here -- it's a one-click onboard now, so easy.

@kek 🐸 in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %+Gmu00ISD

@btrask

Also, if you want to solve spam so you decide we need to end capitalism... Now you've got two problems.

Well, people wanted to end capitalism before there was email, so its the other way around ;)

@dominic

I think when [@robin.paulson] says "utopian paradise" he may mean "unrealistic fantasy"

I thought so but wasn't sure :)

@rosshill
I agree facebook messenger is convenient, but imho that shouldn't be the primary quality a piece of software should be measured by. I share your analysis that the phone is the number one medium when you want to reach many people, esp. when you not only look at Europe and North America.

It has end to end encryption and self-destructing messages through Open Whisper.

And you can be super sure that they will store who wrote whom at what time. I know that ssb's metadata situation is also tricky, but at least its not our business model.

@ev

Someone told me to try DKIMs, but I haven't got around to that yet.

Yeah I think DKIM+SPF significantly improves your chances to pass through border controls spam checks.

@btrask in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %+Gmu00ISD

@Dominic "utopian paradise" was @robin.paulson not me!

@robin.paulson ROI is more than just financial--it's about incentives in general. It's easy to send someone an email for your own benefit, not because the recipient necessarily wants to read it. A similar but non-economic example is online dating.

Also, if you want to solve spam so you decide we need to end capitalism... Now you've got two problems.

@gb in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %+Gmu00ISD

@rosshill hey, welcome back to decentralized social conversation -- wondered where you'd been

@ev in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %+Gmu00ISD

@rosshill

the autoresponder says I'll check occasionally but fb messenger is a better way to reach me.

Ok, I think I mis-remembered. I should have emailed you first before trusting my memory.

The fb messenger link can't work for me, because I'm not on fb. I haven't been since the end of 2010! But that's part of the discussion we've been having here -- the challenge with eliminating email is you gotta offer people another way to get in touch. Though I encourage people to try sbot, and I think the lite client is pretty easy to get set up, I simultaneously don't think that it'd be fair to force people to communicate with me over sbot.

One thing that's missing from the sbot lite client is push notifications on a phone. I don't have a phone, so it'd be hard for me to test that.

I also wish OpenWhisper did federation

We had a conversation here early last year about Signal and their decision to not federate as the justification for auto-updates. I think we were talking about trying to find a way to sign and distribute sbot over the network in an automated way, while also avoiding centralization. It might be possible, but we haven't done that yet.

If your email server has 1 email address and especially if you keep changing that 1 email address you never build a history that other email services can trust. That's why you're in spam unless they add you to the contact list.

I've been using the same email address for a long time. But yah, I run my own email server which I'm not sure at least Google loves all that much. Someone told me to try DKIMs, but I haven't got around to that yet.

Maybe 2017 will bring a more international decentralised option?

I hope so.

@ev in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %+Gmu00ISD

I just found the import key feature.

@rosshill1123 Thanks! I ended up coding an import/export feature because of exactly what you said in the previous message: it's very easy to lose your keys in the lite client.

I think the last time you jumped on it was very early days for both Bay and I think the lite client might have just been invented that week. Things have come a long way since then, but we still have a long way to go before everything is perfect in sbot land.

@rosshill in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %+Gmu00ISD

Oh cool, I just found the import key feature. That's really nice

@rosshill in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %+Gmu00ISD

100% is your claim not mine 😜 the autoresponder says I'll check occasionally but fb messenger is a better way to reach me. My http://m.me/rwhwr link works on mobile and desktop and most of the day I'll see the message in a few seconds.

I use fb messenger to chat with most people, because most friends have it on their phone, it's immediate, it does media and calls, works anywhere in the world, doesn't rely on phone numbers or email, there is no spam, and it gets regular updates. It has end to end encryption and self-destructing messages through Open Whisper. So do LINE and Signal. I wish it had international payments / bitcoin / ethereum apps but it doesn't yet. I also wish OpenWhisper did federation but it looks like that's not likely https://whispersystems.org/blog/the-ecosystem-is-moving/

Most of the connected world have a phone, some of them share a desktop, few own a personal desktop, few own a watch. This is also the #1 reason I'm not on sbot more often, because the keys get lost in the mobile browser somehow. These numbers are quite interesting http://blog.wechat.com/2016/12/29/the-2016-wechat-data-report/

If your email server has 1 email address and especially if you keep changing that 1 email address you never build a history that other email services can trust. That's why you're in spam unless they add you to the contact list. The social networks make it really easy to add friends to your contact list, so their messages get delivered really reliably.

Email, phone calls and SMS obviously all lack encryption and shared social graphs, so they all have spam and security issues. That's unlikely to change soon. Despite this, the companies that deliver my electricity, gas, old banking, old sms 2fa, accomodation, fiber, cars, flights etc refuse to use fb messenger so I still check email and a phone number occasionally. They often send amusing replies to the autoresponder asking me to call their call centres back 🤣

WeChat shows that people prefer to use messaging and payments with both friends and businesses, when it works easily. Maybe 2017 will bring a more international decentralised option?

@md in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %+Gmu00ISD

I don't like email either. I use it to send emails to less than five people and if there was another way I would use it. There are so many flaws with email. You have to rely on others to encrypt their sides of the message. Which 99% of the time, they won't. Spam. Newsletters. The only compromise I've come across so far is to only check my email once a week and delete everything. I don't even give my email address out anymore. I would rather use Patchwork or ZeroNet for mail. But sadly the same people who still use email, don't use these services.

@kek 🐸 in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %+Gmu00ISD

if I opted out of email, I'm forcing those people to use sbot.

Well, you force them to either use sbot or (more realistic imho) stop talking to you using computers.

@dominic in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %+Gmu00ISD

@keks I think when @btrask says "utopian paradise" he may mean "unrealistic fantasy"

@ev in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %+Gmu00ISD

@keks Perhaps one of the issues here is when you opt-out of email completely, it ends up being an ultimatum for other people who use different services. While I don't use iFaceboozlezon Messenger (I haven't had a Faceboozle account since 2010), many other people use Faceboozle as their primary communication platform.

By maintaining my email, I make it possible to interface with those folks -- if I opted out of email, I'm forcing those people to use sbot. While this network is growing, it's still mostly early adopters with a high level of technical expertise.

@btrask I used Bitmessage too a few years ago. I think it was a good first stab at 100% private encrypted messages. I even got a few people to use it with me too. Then, as far as I could tell, the project failed. That's another risk with switching off email -- what if we look back in three years and sbot ends up being a failed project?

@gb How are you feeling about your email this morning?

@kek 🐸 in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %+Gmu00ISD

I think proof-of-work or something like safety deposits plus a whitelist of established contacts could work. But I haven't seen much work in that direction, aside from BitMessage, which was too heavy-handed.

Well there is Hashcash from 1997.

It (pure markets, property governing everything) is a utopian paradise

wat

@robin in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %+Gmu00ISD

Replying to %4WVcDze...

The reason email gets spammed is because its free for complete strangers to send you
messages. Any replacement that has that property (including web forms) will eventually
get spammed too. Change the expected ROI and the volume of spam changes too. (And
anything prone to spam will end up centralized to try to choke it off.)

Well, that's all only true if you view the world through a system made up of markets and other weirdness. We are in a nutty system which has been dropped on top of something which resembles how humans actually behave. It (pure markets, property governing everything) is a utopian paradise which could never exist in any meaningful way. There are many reasons why spam is successful, good "ROI" is only part of the problem. The poor design of email is also part of the problem, as is an ideology which forces us to screw each other over to get anywhere in life (see any research on Game Theory). SSB is an attempt to change the inherent centralisation which comes with markets and property.

@btrask in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %+Gmu00ISD

If you get 300 spam messages per day, the first thing to do is start using a new address. It'll be less disruptive than whatever other solutions you come up with.

The reason email gets spammed is because its free for complete strangers to send you messages. Any replacement that has that property (including web forms) will eventually get spammed too. Change the expected ROI and the volume of spam changes too. (And anything prone to spam will end up centralized to try to choke it off.)

I think proof-of-work or something like safety deposits plus a whitelist of established contacts could work. But I haven't seen much work in that direction, aside from BitMessage, which was too heavy-handed.

@kek 🐸 in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %+Gmu00ISD

Interesting thread!

First a few general remarks. I don't like email. It was designed for a completely different kind of network than we have today. But, similar to many other things we might want to eliminate, its not really about the elimination. Its about what comes afterwards.
If there were huge riots in the US now that would topple the state so Trump won't become president, I'm pretty confident that what comes out of that is much much worse than Trump. Same with email - we'd probably end up with an iFaceBooglezon Messenger.
So instead we should think about what we actually want to have and what we don't want to have.

Proponents of ssb argued that it has good spam resistance because you can just block spamming feeds. I don't think this is quite true. I believe the reason spamming is not an issue here is that we are still too niche to be profitable, not because its not possible. An attacker can create a lot of feeds and try to lure people into following them. Luring the user might mean exploiting the user's computer.
Additionally, ssb doesn't do unsolicited messaging. If someone who has a large social distance to me wants to contact me on ssb, they are currently not able to do so. Sure, you could provide a web form, but that only moves the spam problem to the web. The typical response to spam on the web is captchas, but I also don't want that.

I had and continue to have some interesting conversations at 33c3. One idea I came across was that the internet has never really been good (you know, egalitarian, community-governed...that kind of stuff). It always was a place owned by companies and states and communities were the first ones who saw the value. Now the internet is one of the primary driving forces for capitalism. Sure "the good ones" also use it, and its not possible to measure whether the internet is "more good than it is bad". What I'm saying is that we need to stop the talk of "fixing the net" and instead think about what kind of network architecture we want, who owns the actual hardware, who governs the nodes, that kind of stuff.

Yes, we need to revisit higher layer protocols at the same time, but I guess we need to ask the same questions. While ssb has good answers to many power-related ones, I think it only of limited use (not useless!) for replacing email as we have it now.

But then, do we want email as we have it now?

@Mikey in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %+Gmu00ISD

Make the Internet Decentralized Again! or Something. (#MIDAS)

@Miles in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %+Gmu00ISD

I just asked my bank and they do not require me to have an email account.

I think I want to try not using email at all, even if I use some type of messaging as a new solution becomes available even a throw away texting number to experiment with.

@gb in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %+Gmu00ISD

Is Secure Scuttlebuttt going in the direction where it will be easier to use than email?

For my part the answer is yes, it already is.

@Apostolis in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %+Gmu00ISD

Maybe one fake email. Remembering all your fake emails is hard.

The main problem is the cost of using the technology vs the benefit (and the cost the others have to endure to contact you.)

If there are technologies that you can use to be private and or own your data, but they make your life difficult, then you will not use them.

Is Secure Scuttlebuttt going in the direction where it will be easier to use than email?

@ev in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %+Gmu00ISD

@mixmix I buy that kids don't think email is cool. It was invented in the 60s! I'm old, but that was a long time before I was born.

But I don't buy that kids will never use cool technologies. It's similar to the idea that grandmas will never use iPhones, and now look at Apple's target market! (At least from what I see by looking around me on the streets of MX.)

We old people remember when technology was cool, so I think about how we can make technology cool enough that kids will use it.

@gb in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %+Gmu00ISD

spin up fake emails

something I've never done, but perhaps a way through this

@robin in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %+Gmu00ISD

%gAxBEII...

yes to this:

reduce spam I receive. Also using some blocklists helps (I use dnsbl.sorbs.net,
bl.spamcop.net and cbl.abuseat.org)

I get maybe 5 spam messages a day - i run my own email too and I got caught out by a certain well-publicised hack recently. Lots of spammers have my email address.

@mixxx in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %+Gmu00ISD

the good news is that generations younger than us don't email, or they at least think it's dumb. I guess the bad news is closed platforms are going to be capturing them.

I like the idea of having fake emails generated for verification / packages - extending that, make them non-human so people can't accidentally memorize and conveniently use them.
e.g. jxhljh34uxb3as7fxuh@scuttlebot.io
you could go further and have a message scuttle-side that you can send to tell the server to deprecate that door into the network once you have the message you need.

I think smart-phone accessabillity is probably one of the main barriers here (remembering that us nerds on laptops are probably a weird minority)

@cellular in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %+Gmu00ISD

Maybe set an auto-responder telling people how to contact you instead of by email? Or reject at the SMTP level with such a message (e.g. example with postfix). That way you can tell people who might try to contact you by email how better to reach you.

If you still want to receive email, I recommend greylisting, I have found that to greatly reduce spam I receive. Also using some blocklists helps (I use dnsbl.sorbs.net, bl.spamcop.net and cbl.abuseat.org)

@jbizzle in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %+Gmu00ISD

I'd perfer to be contacted via means of cryptocommunications - but I'd still feel reliant on email for certain actions such as sign-ups and package tracking. Perhaps I can spin up fake emails for those things.

@Miles in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %+Gmu00ISD

@ev Back when I was single, I would change my phone number every month to weed out those that were not in one of my circles. It worked great.

I wonder if changing your email and relying primarily on other means, at least to test the waters would help with coming up with a workable solution

@Miles in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %+Gmu00ISD

@ev @gb I've been thinking about this for a while, eliminating my email use.

Other than work emails which go to a different address and an occasional bank email, my personal use of email is spent mostly deleting spam.

I find I mostly communicate via text in one way shape or form. If I could set up the 'form' as you have called it on a website with ability to upload a document it might just work.

As for the antisocial bit, I imagine if one was seen active, such as a message stream on your website others would see that you are active in different circles.

On the marketing side... I am still thinking about it

@ev in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %+Gmu00ISD

There are still a few things stuck in my craw about this topic that I want to discuss.

A few people I've known personally have tried to eliminate email.

Leo Babouta claimed to have minimalized his email account in 2010, but when pushed always had a secret email account that he'd give people (I know because he gave me it). I'm not sure why you'd want to lie about this (cred?), but he did. I'm not sure if he still operates this way.

Ross Hill's autoresponder says he doesn't check email anymore -- instead claiming to rely 100% on Facebook Messenger. But whenever I email him he gets back to me, so he obviously still uses his email. I think it's kind of stupid that he's relying on Facebook, because he's a Bitcoin advocate so it's not as if public/private key cryptography is a mystery to him.

Eliminating email is so weird because it ends up being not just a technology problem, but a human interface problem. You gotta keep in mind that almost everyone has an email account, and even people who've claimed to delete their email are most of the time just making stuff up. Meanwhile email, the technology, just gets older and more fragile every year.

@ev in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %+Gmu00ISD

@gb Yah, it's a hard problem. It's also your choice. Perhaps you could try a one-month email elimination experiment and see how it goes?

Does anyone on the network have thoughts on this topic? Feel free to weigh in. The thread is up on my website: https://evbogue.com/eliminatingemail/ so your response will go to the public web.

@gb in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %+Gmu00ISD

If people need proof of my social abilities I invite them to visit Mexico City, look me in the eyeballs and speak their minds. I guess a large part of it is the trade-off. It's my life, going minutes at a time, down the spamdrain. I don't know if I've ever heard anyone accuse me of being anti-social. On the contrary, I've more often been called over-social. But yeah, I see your point. I hate forms, too. Damned if I do, damned if I don't. This is stuck in my craw for reals. For years. I know some people do greylisting; maybe that's a possibility.

@ev in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %+Gmu00ISD

I realize your pain point is your real email to fake email ratio is 500 to 1.

However I'm concerned taking an email account off your website could be viewed as 'you don't want to talk to anybody' or you don't want to answer support requests.

For example, I hate going to someone's website looking for their contact only to find a php submit form that might not even work.

How do you avoid seeming antisocial with the rest of the world while eliminating email?

@ev in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %+Gmu00ISD

@gb An sbot form would work, but how would you reply unless they spin up an sbot identity?

I think you gotta make people aware that they're using a distributed social network to contact you and make it clear they need to keep their public/private key to be able to receive a reply from you.

@gb in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %+Gmu00ISD

heard

@gb in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %+Gmu00ISD

You mean use the sbot tech to create a form so that someone visiting my site gets to interact with sbot without even being aware they're doing so? I think the best tech is as visible as air, so...maybe. Hold up though, I have to push this chapter.

@ev in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %+Gmu00ISD

@gb Yah, I've heard from people that ev@evbogue.com emails go to spam in gmail unless I'm in their contact list. It's because gmail's spam approach seems to have devolved into authenticating only corporate email.

So you're saying that you only want to talk to people who are willing to use sufficiently advanced technologies? I remember making that argument back in 2010, but I met a lot of resistance from people who felt that I should keep using email.

Can we make it possible for people who aren't on sbot to easily contact you over sbot?

@gb in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %+Gmu00ISD

Yeah. The thing is though, when I do email people I think they'd rather that I hadn't. Maybe that's a problem with email. Or maybe people really do not want to hear from me. I will have to reflect on this some more to figure out if it's one, the other, or both. I also have this strange sneaking suspicion that my emails get filtered to spam folders either on purpose or accidentally. So when I do send an email, it's going to people's spam folders if they haven't put gwen@gwenbell.com in their 'people I wanna hear from' folder. No se.

@gb in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %+Gmu00ISD

Yah. Let's talk this out in public. The two of us have been having this conversation in some form since December 2010. It all started at a pub in a mountain town far, far away. Yesterday you said, 'approach it like an engineer' so I took to the problem the way an engineer would. I'm trying to figure out

  1. Why I get so much spam
  2. Why people still use email even though email has been and continues to be, mostly a spambox

I got the information I already knew. Spammers make a little money off spamming people. So-called 'good' (as if there were such a thing) spammers make lots of money and run lots of servers in places where there are no laws against doing what they do.

The best solution I saw is one I've used in the past: switch to forms. If someone wants to email me, they can use a form or they can use sbot and talk to me on here. There's zero reason to spend another moment on this. I'll powerdown email, powerup the form on my site, embed this conversation on my site so people can ask questions and push back if they want to. How about you? You have a spam plan that actually works? Tell me about it before I switch off email altogether.

@ev in #stuckinyourcraw
Re: %+Gmu00ISD

@gb Woah there, isn't switching your email account off forever something you need to think through before you jump off the deep end?

One of the benefits of being on the email net is everyone has an email account. When you drop off that grid, you'll be unable to email anyone. Right?

@ev in #stuckinyourcraw

Eliminate email

@gb said this morning that she's tired of receiving 300 spam messages a day --85% going to her spam folder.

I asked if it was possible to eliminate email altogether now that Secure Scuttlebutt works.

Perhaps having this conversation in public will help us figure out if it is possible to eliminate email in 2017?